experchange > mac.system

Ant (10-20-18, 03:23 AM)
From


Mac OS X is so much better! :D
Supermarine Spitfire (10-20-18, 02:58 PM)
On 20/10/2018 2:23 am, Ant wrote:
> From
>
> Mac OS X is so much better! :D


Wow. That brings back a few memories of occasionally cursing at the Mac
Plus / II / SE machines when I was doing coursework at university. I
also remember that the first Mac we got at my former workplace (a
PowerMac G4) originally ran OS 9.0, before eventually being upgraded to
OS X 10.3 (with the Classic OS 9.2 for a few apps we still needed to use.)
Krzysztof Mitko (10-20-18, 06:48 PM)
On 20 Oct 2018, Supermarine Spitfire wrote
(in article <pqf8pe$ulg$1>):

> On 20/10/2018 2:23 am, Ant wrote:
> Wow. That brings back a few memories of occasionally cursing at the Mac
> Plus / II / SE machines when I was doing coursework at university. I
> also remember that the first Mac we got at my former workplace (a
> PowerMac G4) originally ran OS 9.0, before eventually being upgraded to
> OS X 10.3 (with the Classic OS 9.2 for a few apps we still needed to use.)


Nice to see a little history, which I unfortunately missed completely. I live
in Poland, in the 1980s it was actually illegal for US company to export
computers here under some sort of US embargo. In the 1990s you could legally
buy Macs, but they were too expensive for most people. I never saw one during
Classic era, from what I remember it was mostly C64/Amiga 500 or 1200 for
home use and DOS, Windows 95/98 for schools and businesses. My family had C64
exclusively until 1999 :).

This topic actually made me remember old ads from the 90s, when apparently
Apple resellers tried to win over the consumers orphaned by the bankrupcy of
Commodore. Not sure how succesful they were, but when I see a Mac user, they
usually learned computers on A500.

<https://www.icloud.com/iclouddrive/0jUyzgtgXbJbdcrZrXkIgTjEg#advert.pdf>

The ad is from May 1995 issue of "Commodore & Amiga” magazine and reads:

“Change to Macintosh!
Do you dream about space travel? Are you preparing for a math test? Are you
writing your awesome diary, full of cool pictures? Macintosh will help you!
Mom and Dad will enjoy it too, as it’s a computer for work, learning and
entertainment. Find, dust off and bring to our shop your old 8 bit computer
and you’ll receive a bonus and buy your new Macintosh for $1099+tax”.

It’s an advert for LC 475 with 4 MB of RAM, 250 MB hard disk, 14”
monitor, keyboard and mouse, it includes Claris Works, dictionary and Polish
language support, which at that time was not provided by Apple and was a
separate product made by one the resellers (I think Polish diacritics and
keyboard layout started to be supported OOTB with OS X, but full Polish
localization only started with 10.5).

At that time the mean salary was around $200/month after taxes. Now it’s
around $800/month and you still can buy a Mac for $1100. That of course
doesn’t stop people from complaining about high prices :).
John Varela (10-23-18, 12:05 AM)
On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 16:48:11 UTC, Krzysztof Mitko
<invalid> wrote:

> Nice to see a little history, which I unfortunately missed completely. I live
> in Poland, in the 1980s it was actually illegal for US company to export
> computers here under some sort of US embargo.


Because you were members of the Warsaw Pact.

> In the 1990s you could legally
> buy Macs, but they were too expensive for most people.


After the collapse of the Soviet Empire.
Your Name (10-23-18, 02:28 AM)
On 2018-10-22 22:05:00 +0000, John Varela said:
> On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 16:48:11 UTC, Krzysztof Mitko
> <invalid> wrote:
>> Nice to see a little history, which I unfortunately missed completely. I live
>> in Poland, in the 1980s it was actually illegal for US company to export
>> computers here under some sort of US embargo.

> Because you were members of the Warsaw Pact.


It may have been illegal, but that didn't stop thousands of American
and UK computers being owned by people "behind the iron curtain", any
more than it stopped them owning jeans and Beatles records. Many
different computers were smuggled in: Commodore 64, Sinclair Spectrum,
Atari 600, etc.

I don't know what computer Tetris was originally written on, but the
Commodore 64 version was the first released in Western countries, so
that could have been what it was written on in Russia.

>> In the 1990s you could legally buy Macs, but they were too expensive
>> for most people.

> After the collapse of the Soviet Empire.


The Soviewt countries of course had their own computers, some simply
knock-offs of the American and UK ones.

There's a webpage all about computers in Czechoslovakia during that
time period:
<https://hackaday.com/2014/12/15/home-computers-behind-the-iron-curtain/>
Eli the Bearded (10-23-18, 05:18 AM)
In comp.sys.mac.vintage, Your Name <YourName> wrote:
> It may have been illegal, but that didn't stop thousands of American
> and UK computers being owned by people "behind the iron curtain", any
> more than it stopped them owning jeans and Beatles records. Many
> different computers were smuggled in: Commodore 64, Sinclair Spectrum,
> Atari 600, etc.


Someone in one of the other comp.* groups posted a link to the Soviet
Computer Museum a month or two ago. I notived there were a lot of Z80
machines but basically nothing like a C64 clone.

> I don't know what computer Tetris was originally written on, but the
> Commodore 64 version was the first released in Western countries, so
> that could have been what it was written on in Russia.


The claim on the internet is a Electronika 60 was the original computer.



Here's that computer at the computer museum:



Elijah
------
spent a lot of time one weekend browsing that museum website
Your Name (10-23-18, 07:18 AM)
On 2018-10-23 03:18:39 +0000, Eli the Bearded said:
> In comp.sys.mac.vintage, Your Name <YourName> wrote:
> Someone in one of the other comp.* groups posted a link to the Soviet
> Computer Museum a month or two ago. I notived there were a lot of Z80
> machines but basically nothing like a C64 clone.


Not clones. It is the real C64 which was relatively popular in Russia
and remained popular long after the western countries had moved on to
newer systems ... or at least that's what many places used to say. Last
I read somewhere, a few years ago now, they were supposedly even still
making C64s in Russia, a bit like the original VW Beetles were still
being built in second-world / third-world countries until recently.
Krzysztof Mitko (10-23-18, 10:55 AM)
On 23 Oct 2018, Your Name wrote
(in article <pqlpvb$1jb2$1>):

> On 2018-10-22 22:05:00 +0000, John Varela said:
> It may have been illegal, but that didn't stop thousands of American
> and UK computers being owned by people "behind the iron curtain", any
> more than it stopped them owning jeans and Beatles records. Many
> different computers were smuggled in: Commodore 64, Sinclair Spectrum,
> Atari 600, etc.


I think MSX were legally exported to Soviet Bloc - I know at least one guy
who bought MSX SpectraVideo in “Składnica Harcerska” (shop run by
state-controlled scouting organization) in late 80s. I know also a lot of
people who bought ZX Spectrums in mid 80s, but I’m not sure how legal it
was.

> I don't know what computer Tetris was originally written on, but the
> Commodore 64 version was the first released in Western countries, so
> that could have been what it was written on in Russia.
> The Soviewt countries of course had their own computers, some simply
> knock-offs of the American and UK ones.
> There's a webpage all about computers in Czechoslovakia during that
> time period:
> <https://hackaday.com/2014/12/15/home-computers-behind-the-iron-curtain/>


We had a knock off of ZX Spectrum called “Elwro Junior”.

<https://oldcomputer.info/8bit/elwro800/index.htm>

But generally the IT in Soviet Bloc was a dead end. Most computers were
either stolen Western tech or cheap knock-offs. Even if someone had
constructed a great computer, it would become a commercial disaster - in the
East local products were perceived as inferior to imported ones [1], in the
West they would be treated as curiosity for collectors.

[1] - that’s why some Polish companies use fake Western names, like
“Reserved”, “Black Red White" or “Melex”.
Siri Cruise (10-23-18, 12:55 PM)
In article <0001HW.217F198B01A987DC7000091CD2EF>,
Krzysztof Mitko <invalid> wrote:

> I think MSX were legally exported to Soviet Bloc - I know at least one guy
> who bought MSX SpectraVideo in �kładnica Harcerska” (shop run by
> state-controlled scouting organization) in late 80s. I know also a lot of
> people who bought ZX Spectrums in mid 80s, but I’m not sure how legal it
> was.


See also )
I.Mackie (11-22-18, 12:57 AM)
On 20/10/2018 02:23, Ant wrote:
> From
>
> Mac OS X is so much better! :D


I've used it ..... and it worked! :-)

I'm now using this

Have you tried it yet?
Mantas (12-14-18, 03:23 PM)
As far as I know, most soviet computers were clones, IBM or ZX Spectrum were
the most popular to copy.
People were making ZX Spectrum clones at home, even improving and upgrading
them and there was a lot of factory made clones.
There were some IBM PC clones, but as I have read, they were very unreliable
and expensive - of course everything is shitty and expensive when you don't
have free market economy.

Lithuania was occupied by soviet union and computers were a rarity even when
they were widely available in the West. I know 2 original Lithuanian
computers - Ruta and Elektronika BK.

Ruta was created when some engineers were tasked of making an IBM mainframe
clone, but they decided to make their own computer and got it approved to
manufacture. Video here:

Elektronika BK was manufactured in Siauliai and had Vilnius Basic (created
in Vilnius University).

After the soviet collapse, the PC ruled for decades, I don't even remember
ads with them, but later found out they were used in publishing, some
schools (or at least one school, Wozniak visited and donated them).

"Siri Cruise" <chine.bleu> wrote in message
news:2018
[..]
Mantas (12-14-18, 03:30 PM)
I mean I don't remember Apple ones.
[..]
Your Name (12-14-18, 09:07 PM)
On 2018-12-14 13:23:57 +0000, Mantas said:
> As far as I know, most soviet computers were clones, IBM or ZX Spectrum
> were the most popular to copy.
> People were making ZX Spectrum clones at home, even improving and
> upgrading them and there was a lot of factory made clones.


Not difficult to improve Sinclair's crappy toy "computers". Just adding
a proper keyboard would be a major improvement by itself, rather than
the disgustingly awful membrane and later rubberised keyboards those
useless things came with. Next up would be a proper operating system
and programming system, rather than the hopeless "press five keys to
get the keyword 'If'" that Sinclairt stupidly forced users to program
with.

But even with massive improvements, those things would still be utterly
useless and nothing more than toys.

If you wanted a *real* home computer back then, you bought a Commodore system.
Lloyd (12-14-18, 09:48 PM)
Your Name <YourName> wrote:
[..]
> But even with massive improvements, those things would still be utterly
> useless and nothing more than toys.
> If you wanted a *real* home computer back then, you bought a Commodore system.


..or an Atari
Your Name (12-15-18, 02:11 AM)
On 2018-12-14 19:48:22 +0000, Lloyd said:
> Your Name <YourName> wrote:
> .or an Atari


True, although they tended to be more popular in America (Britain had
the BBC computers) and the Atari 400 did have the same ridiculous
membrane keyboard as Sinclair's pre-Spectrum garbage.

There were also a ton of other lesser brands which came and went very
quickly as many companies tried to jump on the new bandwagon.

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