experchange > linux.misc

Aragorn (11-21-19, 10:58 PM)
On 21.11.2019 at 08:36, The Natural Philosopher scribbled:

> On 21/11/2019 04:49, Aragorn wrote:
> > Mageia 2 was released, when, 2012? It's 2019 now, Robert. Things do
> > change with time.;)

> Climate doesn't. Everyine knows that climate and CO2 were stable for
> millions of years before SUVS and anyone who says 'ice age' is a
> climate denier.


Well, that's an entirely different debate, and seriously off-topic.
But since you've asked so nicely, I will share my opinion here. :p

Climate change is real. It is also a fact that climate change has been
accelerating. There is a perceivable and undeniable increase in carbon
dioxide content in the atmosphere. And considering how mankind has
been polluting the atmosphere, the soils and the seas with impunity for
so long for the sake of harvesting money — which I strongly suspecthas
not yet become edible yet — it stands to reason that mankind has (and
has in the past had) an influence on the rate by which the climate is
changing.

However, just because mankind's activity may be a catalyst in climate
change, there is equally undeniable evidence that Earth's climate has
been changing and has undergone some very drastic metamorphoses in the
past, long before mankind first appeared on Earth, and even after that,
but before the industrial revolution.

There are maps of Antarctica dating back to the 1500s, which clearly
show Antarctica's coast line as what it looks like _without the ice_
and we all know that during the time of the dinosaurs, Earth as a
whole was a lot hotter than it is now.

Here's what I think. The universe is an organic construct, and you
cannot jump to boilerplate conclusions about what's going on here on
the surface of this planet without looking at what's going on beyond
our atmosphere. Solar activity and cosmic radiation are just as
important.

In addition to that, there are also important social changes going on
now, in the sense that the political establishment that has been
neglecting the environment and ruling over mankind with hubris for
decades is now being countered by a chaotic populist movement that
grasps at straws and insists on political correctness for everyone
other than themselves. There is also a strong surge of pseudoscience —
e.g. the Flat Earth meme — and of mob rule. Things are polarizing.

Thesis and antithesis are going at each other's throats, but there is
no synthesis, because quite frankly, mankind is too stupid.

Things are only going to get worse, and anyone who truly dares propose
a viable alternative is called a socialist or some other ludicrous
allegation of "otherness". Capitalism (blessed be its name) is holy
and untouchable, and if you are against capitalism (blessed be its name)
then you must by definition be an infidel, um, I mean, a socialist. Or
if you're a US American, then you must by definition be a "libtard" — or
at least, so say the "contards", and we all know there are only two
possible vantages, right?

Either way, global warming or not, what most people are afraid of is
that humanity would come to perish. Because the planet will still be
here long after we're all gone. And given how we treat each other and
how we treat other species, and how stupid we are, perhaps it would be
a good thing for the universe if we were, indeed, to perish.

> Greta Thunberg told me so. And who knows more about it than she does?


Well, she's actually a very clever girl. Apparently she has also
mastered time travel now. :p

In all seriousness, just in case you haven't come across the news yet
— and so far I've only seen it in Belgian news articles, so it's
possible that the Anglo-Saxon world hasn't picked up on it yet — an
authentic photograph has shown up, taken in Canada around 1889, of a
bunch of children, and one of those is literally the spitting image of
Greta Thunberg, including her braided hair. The likeness is truly
uncanny.

And so now people are saying that Greta Thunberg must be a time
traveler. Possibly the same people as who claim that Earth is flat,
that the Nazis were the good guys and that they have all migrated to a
base on the moon, and that QAnon is a soopa doopa seekrit US military
insider who helps Donald Trump fight the Deep State™, which is entirely
made up of Libtards™.

But hey, they're all on YouTube, the number one hangout of genuine
bike-shed scientists and enlightened minds (with Windows computers and
Apple notebooks), so it must all be true. :p
Roger Blake (11-21-19, 11:16 PM)
On 2019-11-21, Aragorn <thorongil> wrote:
> Climate change is real.


Climate change is quite obviously real. It is a natural phenomenon. CO2
is not a pollutant. It is a trace gas, necessary for plants and required
in small amounts in the human bloodstream to trigger breathing. Without
CO2 in the atmosphere we would all die - and CO2 levels have been much
higher in the past, even before the industrial revolution.

There is no "climate crisis." The claimed "consensus" is based on flawed
polling data and there is in fact a huge amount of controversy, and those
putting forth the hysteria around the subject have been found time and
time again to be fudging and falsifying data and making false statements
to fit their flawed computer models and theories.

In point of fact the level of certainty claimed by the alarmist community
is not justified by science or observation. Those questioning the
alarmist conclusions, legitimate scientists included, are loudly shouted
down as heretics, deluded cranks, and "deniers" in much the same was
that religious zealots deal with unbelievers.

Even the founding father of modern climate science, Reid Bryson,
referred to the idea of human-caused global warming as "absurd" and
"a bunch of hooey".

A couple of good places to start looking at the other side of the coin
for those interested is here:





As for myself, I am still waiting for the imminent ice age that climate
scientists promised me back in the 1970s - and I will not be taking any
steps to reduce my "carbon footprint".

This is seriously off-topic here (obviously) and that's all I'll say
about it - promise!
The Natural Philosopher (11-22-19, 06:06 AM)
On 21/11/2019 20:58, Aragorn wrote:
> On 21.11.2019 at 08:36, The Natural Philosopher scribbled:
> Well, that's an entirely different debate, and seriously off-topic.
> But since you've asked so nicely, I will share my opinion here. :p
> Climate change is real.


OK

> It is also a fact that climate change has been
> accelerating. Compared to what?


> There is a perceivable and undeniable increase in carbon
> dioxide content in the atmosphere. OK


>> been polluting the atmosphere, the soils and the seas with impunity for

> so long for the sake of harvesting money — which I strongly suspect has
> not yet become edible yet — it stands to reason that mankind has (and
> has in the past had) an influence on the rate by which the climate is
> changing.

Mankind is fertilisizing the planet by releaseing all the CO2 locked up
in dead plants and animals and adding it back to teh atmosphere.

CO2 is not pollution. It was only defined so politically in order that
the US EPA could gain jurisdiction over it.

To say that mankind has had an effect on climate is truly a trivial
statement. Every living thing has an effect on climate. The impact of
photosynthesis that turned a CO2 rich atmoshere into one lodaed with
oxyuegen and allowed insect and then animals to exist was monumental.
Far greater than the impact of a rather unlikely bipedal mammalian species.

[..]
> grasps at straws and insists on political correctness for everyone
> other than themselves. There is also a strong surge of pseudoscience —
> e.g. the Flat Earth meme — and of mob rule. Things are polarizing. NO argument there.


> Thesis and antithesis are going at each other's throats, but there is
> no synthesis, because quite frankly, mankind is too stupid.

Mankind is stupid because it suits the Establsihment to keep it that
way. It can then be controlled by kneejerk emotional narratives.

> Things are only going to get worse, and anyone who truly dares propose
> a viable alternative is called a socialist or some other ludicrous
> allegation of "otherness".


Socialism is the problem. It is te estabishment tool to make people
dependent on the State for everything and reduce self reliance to zero.

> Capitalism (blessed be its name) is holy
> and untouchable,


It works up to a point and it is also the servant of the establishment.

> and if you are against capitalism (blessed be its name)
> then you must by definition be an infidel, um, I mean, a socialist. Or
> if you're a US American, then you must by definition be a "libtard" — or
> at least, so say the "contards", and we all know there are only two
> possible vantages, right?


That particulat false dichotomy is the political areana of te West yes.
In reality capitalism and socialsim are both tools used by the
establishment to distract from the real issues. As is climate change.
> Either way, global warming or not, what most people are afraid of is
> that humanity would come to perish.

Frankly I thoink it would be great if huge swathes of it did starting
with the Greens. Yiu cannot reard utter stupidity forever without there
being Darwinian conesequences.

> Because the planet will still be
> here long after we're all gone. And given how we treat each other and
> how we treat other species, and how stupid we are, perhaps it would be
> a good thing for the universe if we were, indeed, to perish.


Who cares?

>> Greta Thunberg told me so. And who knows more about it than she does?

> Well, she's actually a very clever girl. Apparently she has also
> mastered time travel now. :p


No shit.

> In all seriousness, just in case you haven't come across the news yet
> — and so far I've only seen it in Belgian news articles, so it's
> possible that the Anglo-Saxon world hasn't picked up on it yet — an
> authentic photograph has shown up, taken in Canada around 1889, of a
> bunch of children, and one of those is literally the spitting image of
> Greta Thunberg, including her braided hair. The likeness is truly
> uncanny. Inbred Skandys.


> And so now people are saying that Greta Thunberg must be a time
> traveler. Possibly the same people as who claim that Earth is flat,
> that the Nazis were the good guys and that they have all migrated to a
> base on the moon, and that QAnon is a soopa doopa seekrit US military
> insider who helps Donald Trump fight the Deep State™, which is entirely
> made up of Libtards™.

No, the Deeps state *controls* the libtards
#
> But hey, they're all on YouTube, the number one hangout of genuine
> bike-shed scientists and enlightened minds (with Windows computers and
> Apple notebooks), so it must all be true. :p


The central weather office consistently tells me it several degrees
warmer than the thermometers at nearby airbases.

Renewable UK consistently tells me that windmills produce 50% more
electricity than the meters attached to them do.

Politics is not about the truth or reality, its about what people can be
made to believe.

Thats how you gain power and keep power.

The problem is the establishment itself - the Deep state - is also now
too incompetent to run things for their *own* benefit, let alone the
benefit of the nations they control

It will all end in tears
Aragorn (11-22-19, 09:35 PM)
On 22.11.2019 at 04:06, The Natural Philosopher scribbled:

> On 21/11/2019 20:58, Aragorn wrote:
> > It is also a fact that climate change has been
> > accelerating.

> Compared to what?


Compared to the early 20th century, possibly the 19th century.

> Mankind is fertilisizing the planet by releaseing all the CO2 locked
> up in dead plants and animals and adding it back to teh atmosphere.
> CO2 is not pollution. It was only defined so politically in order
> that the US EPA could gain jurisdiction over it.


I didn't say that CO2 is pollution. I said mankind has been polluting
the planet for decades already. Plastics/microplastics, other
hazardous chemicals, and so on. Hell, and then we're not even talking
of the roughly 4000 nuclear detonations during the Cold War, of which
over 2200 by the USA and well over 1400 by the Sovient Union — the rest
is down to the French, the British, the Chinese, and a few other
countries.

> To say that mankind has had an effect on climate is truly a trivial
> statement. Every living thing has an effect on climate. The impact of
> photosynthesis that turned a CO2 rich atmoshere into one lodaed with
> oxyuegen and allowed insect and then animals to exist was monumental.
> Far greater than the impact of a rather unlikely bipedal mammalian
> species.


No argument from me on that. And I would like to add that if they're
so concerned with carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere, then why
aren't they stopping the destruction of the Brazilian rain forest that
has been going on at an alarming rate for decades already?

That's about the largest natural carbon sink on the planet, and they're
still chopping away at it at a rate of thousands of hectares per day.
> > Thesis and antithesis are going at each other's throats, but there
> > is no synthesis, because quite frankly, mankind is too stupid.

> Mankind is stupid because it suits the Establsihment to keep it that
> way. It can then be controlled by kneejerk emotional narratives.


That is only partly true. Mankind already had stupidity built-in from
the onset.

> That particulat false dichotomy is the political areana of te West
> yes. In reality capitalism and socialsim are both tools used by the
> establishment to distract from the real issues. As is climate change.


Yes. Earth provides more than enough for every living soul, but it is
mankind who has made itself the arbiter of who gets and who doesn't.

Climate change, even though I do believe that (primarily) industrial
activity contributes to the accelerated changes, has been politicized,
and there have indeed also been falsified reports.

Greta Thunberg means well, but she is being played, and in her teenage
brain, she is being strengthened by the fact that the sensationalist
media have lifted her up to the status of a saint and a role model. She
doesn't realize that she's being manipulated — she and all the other
teenage girls who've aligned themselves with her.

> > Either way, global warming or not, what most people are afraid of is
> > that humanity would come to perish.

> Frankly I thoink it would be great if huge swathes of it did starting
> with the Greens. Yiu cannot reard utter stupidity forever without
> there being Darwinian conesequences.


Well, in spite of the fact that you've admitted that the problem comes
as much from the political right as from the political left, you still
exhibit a clear anti-left bias while attenuating the sins of the right.

It wasn't the Greens who deployed slave labor. It wasn't the Greens
who drove several species into near-extinction. It wasn't the Greens
who detonated two nuclear bombs against an enemy who was already about
to officially capitulate in order to scare off the communists.

It isn't the Greens who are invading sovereign nations in order to
spread the capitalist/consumerist way that would benefit the large
corporations. And I don't think Google, Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft
and Apple would be so green either.

> > Because the planet will still be here long after we're all gone.
> > And given how we treat each other and how we treat other species,
> > and how stupid we are, perhaps it would be a good thing for the
> > universe if we were, indeed, to perish.

> Who cares?


If there's any intelligent life out there, then it would be a bad thing
for them go ever meet the human species, considering how we treat each
other down here on the third rock from the sun.

> Inbred Skandys.


They may have been Scandinavian children, or not. I don't know.
Accusing them of inbreeding because of a physical likeness — possibly
enhanced by photographic artifacts — is however quite harsh.

There are plenty of people who look alike, and it doesn't have to have
anything to do with inbreeding.

> No, the Deeps state *controls* the libtards


The Deep State™ is merely an alt-right meme. Yes, the US government is
corrupt — who'da thunk, right? — and yes, there are conspirators
everywhere, because power corrupts and absolute power corrupts
absolutely.

The real monsters of this world are the banks, because the banks
control everything. Literally everything. They control wars, and they
finance both sides — it's called hedging; whoever loses, the bank
always wins. And they control all other corporations, AND the
governments.

The US bipartisan system is also utterly corrupt, and driven by ego and
money. US elections are not about programs; they are celebrity
contests. But that's not the root of the evil. The corporate world is
the root of the evil, and within the corporate world, specifically the
banksters.

> Politics is not about the truth or reality, its about what people can
> be made to believe.


Amen to that.

> It will all end in tears


What goes around, comes around. Karma's a bitch.
The Natural Philosopher (11-22-19, 10:40 PM)
On 22/11/2019 19:35, Aragorn wrote:
> On 22.11.2019 at 04:06, The Natural Philosopher scribbled:
>> On 21/11/2019 20:58, Aragorn wrote:
>>> It is also a fact that climate change has been
>>> accelerating.

>> Compared to what?

> Compared to the early 20th century, possibly the 19th century. But not the 10th century or the 6th century or 10,000 BC...


> I didn't say that CO2 is pollution. I said mankind has been polluting
> the planet for decades already. Plastics/microplastics, other
> hazardous chemicals, and so on. Hell, and then we're not even talking
> of the roughly 4000 nuclear detonations during the Cold War, of which
> over 2200 by the USA and well over 1400 by the Sovient Union — the rest
> is down to the French, the British, the Chinese, and a few other
> countries.

What is pollution? Is pigshit pollution? Do beavers cause environmental
damage? Are termites a dangerous planet destroying species? Does mallpox
have a right to life? DFo vegetables scream when you voil them, but you
simply dont hear?

It all in yer mind where its all been placed carefully.

> No argument from me on that. And I would like to add that if they're
> so concerned with carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere, then why
> aren't they stopping the destruction of the Brazilian rain forest that
> has been going on at an alarming rate for decades already?
> That's about the largest natural carbon sink on the planet, and they're
> still chopping away at it at a rate of thousands of hectares per day.
> That is only partly true. Mankind already had stupidity built-in from
> the onset. Not so much. Stupidity to a massive extent meant dying before you fucked.


Now it is rewarded.

> Yes. Earth provides more than enough for every living soul, No, patently it does not.


> but it is
> mankind who has made itself the arbiter of who gets and who doesn't.


You have been brainwashed by socialism.

Go and live in a poor country and work out why its poor.

> Climate change, even though I do believe that (primarily) industrial
> activity contributes to the accelerated changes, has been politicized,
> and there have indeed also been falsified reports.
> Greta Thunberg means well, but she is being played, and in her teenage
> brain, she is being strengthened by the fact that the sensationalist
> media have lifted her up to the status of a saint and a role model. She
> doesn't realize that she's being manipulated — she and all the other
> teenage girls who've aligned themselves with her.


Bet she does,

> Well, in spite of the fact that you've admitted that the problem comes
> as much from the political right as from the political left, you still
> exhibit a clear anti-left bias while attenuating the sins of the right.

Its you that are fixated on left and right., In your model what you dont
realise is that the right owns the left.

> It wasn't the Greens who deployed slave labor.


Hitler was a vegan

> It wasn't the Greens
> who drove several species into near-extinction.


Nope, it was dinosaurs and bacteria

It wasn't the Greens
> who detonated two nuclear bombs against an enemy who was already about
> to officially capitulate in order to scare off the communists.


Oh dear. More conspiracy thgoery.,
The reaoisn to detonate bombs was to show that the US was a world power
and to save lives in Japan. Which it did. Ther hsan;t been a world war
sinmce. People are smply too scared.

> It isn't the Greens who are invading sovereign nations in order to
> spread the capitalist/consumerist way that would benefit the large
> corporations. And I don't think Google, Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft
> and Apple would be so green either.


Actually it is.

> If there's any intelligent life out there, then it would be a bad thing
> for them go ever meet the human species, considering how we treat each
> other down here on the third rock from the sun. Oh FFS You are full of noble childlike bullshit, really.


> They may have been Scandinavian children, or not. I don't know.
> Accusing them of inbreeding because of a physical likeness — possibly
> enhanced by photographic artifacts — is however quite harsh.


Scandinavia is a small country. Prior to their invasion by Islam they
all looked remearkably alike.

#
> There are plenty of people who look alike, and it doesn't have to have
> anything to do with inbreeding.


It does when a tribve becoems essentially one large family constrained
by geography to a single region

> The Deep State™ is merely an alt-right meme.


Oh really?

> Yes, the US government is
> corrupt — who'da thunk, right? — and yes, there are conspirators
> everywhere, because power corrupts and absolute power corrupts
> absolutely.
> The real monsters of this world are the banks, because the banks
> control everything. Literally everything. They control wars, and they
> finance both sides — it's called hedging; whoever loses, the bank
> always wins. And they control all other corporations, AND the
> governments.


True. But they dont control other stuff.
[..]
Bobbie Sellers (11-22-19, 11:09 PM)
On 11/22/19 11:35 AM, Aragorn wrote:
[..]
> who drove several species into near-extinction. It wasn't the Greens
> who detonated two nuclear bombs against an enemy who was already about
> to officially capitulate in order to scare off the communists.


Read some of the material on the attitude of the Japanese
Militarists. Capitulation was not in the cards. They wanted to
have a bloody invasion by the Americans so that Samurai spirit
could go on display as the people with bamboo spears came up against
the invading force,

> It isn't the Greens who are invading sovereign nations in order to
> spread the capitalist/consumerist way that would benefit the large
> corporations. And I don't think Google, Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft
> and Apple would be so green either.


I do. And so do many others but we see the immobility of the
establishment as daily the petroleum and coal using automobiles and
industries continue on their course toward the end of human civilization
and the return of feudalism degenerating into tribalism.

[..]
> corrupt — who'da thunk, right? — and yes, there are conspirators
> everywhere, because power corrupts and absolute power corrupts
> absolutely.

The so-called "Deep State" is a hallucination of the right and
the conspiracy theorists. It is an expression of the will of the people
and the limits set by the Constitution.

> The real monsters of this world are the banks, because the banks
> control everything. Literally everything. They control wars, and they
> finance both sides — it's called hedging; whoever loses, the bank
> always wins. And they control all other corporations, AND the
> governments.


Well that may be the case but if the right persons are elected to the
offices of President and to the Congress that influence can
be reduced to manageable levesl,
> The US bipartisan system is also utterly corrupt, and driven by ego and
> money. US elections are not about programs; they are celebrity
> contests. But that's not the root of the evil. The corporate world is
> the root of the evil, and within the corporate world, specifically the
> banksters.


Actually the profit seekers are the problem because that is the
only thing they are willing to consider not the effects of their
products a few years later.

>> Politics is not about the truth or reality, its about what people can
>> be made to believe.

> Amen to that.
>> It will all end in tears

> What goes around, comes around. Karma's a bitch.


Well the laws of physics and nature are going to play hell
with everything we take for granted. Call it karma but it is nature's
reaction to the acceleration of the green house effect since the
Industrial Revolution started with the steam engine being used in mines.

bliss - a native born American from a different era. In that
Era American Capitalism smothered the Hitlerians with mass production
and relieved Europe and Asia of German and Japanese imperialism.
Aragorn (11-22-19, 11:50 PM)
On 22.11.2019 at 20:40, The Natural Philosopher scribbled:

> On 22/11/2019 19:35, Aragorn wrote:
> But not the 10th century or the 6th century or 10,000 BC...


I don't remember anymore. I was still very young back then. :p
> > Yes. Earth provides more than enough for every living soul,

> No, patently it does not.


No, patently it does. Earth can easily sustain up to 9 billion humans.

Scarcity is both artificial and intentional.

> You have been brainwashed by socialism.


No, I am being logical.

> Go and live in a poor country and work out why its poor.


I live in a supposedly rich country and I am dirt poor because I'm
disabled and surrounded by hungry vampires.

> Its you that are fixated on left and right., In your model what you
> dont realise is that the right owns the left.


I realize that better than you do.
> > It wasn't the Greens who deployed slave labor.

> Hitler was a vegan


Godwin much?

> > It wasn't the Greens who drove several species into
> > near-extinction.

> Nope, it was dinosaurs and bacteria


No, it's overfishing and overhunting, and driving species out of their
natural habitat so we can dig for oil or build some large factory.

Meanwhile there are moratoriums on the construction of new houses —we
must preserve the green, you know — but nbot for the industry, because
commerce and industry are supposed to bring wealth. And they do... to
the business owners — not to the people.

Besides, automation already nullifies the argument that new industries
create new jobs.

> > It wasn't the Greens who detonated two nuclear bombs against an enemy who was already
> > about to officially capitulate in order to scare off the communists.

> Oh dear. More conspiracy thgoery.,


Says the guy who talks about the Deep State™.

> The reaoisn to detonate bombs was to show that the US was a world
> power [...


Well duh, that's what I said. They wanted to show the Soviets that
America had the biggest dick.

> and to save lives in Japan. Which it did.


Bullshit. The Japanese knew they were on the losing end of the war,
because their logistics supply from Germany and Italy had been cut off
due to the military action on the European mainland in 1945, and they
were about to capitulate. It was a matter of days. But Uncle Sam just
had to show his dick to the Russian bear.

> Ther hsan;t been a world war sinmce. People are smply too scared.


Bullshit again. The Cuban missile crisis brought the whole world within
minutes from a global nuclear war. Luckily, Kennedy saw was smart
enough to call the whole thing off.

> > It isn't the Greens who are invading sovereign nations in order to
> > spread the capitalist/consumerist way that would benefit the large
> > corporations. And I don't think Google, Amazon, Facebook, Microsoft
> > and Apple would be so green either.

> Actually it is.


No, it isn't. Being Green and pretending to be Green are two different
things.
> Oh FFS You are full of noble childlike bullshit, really.


Going ad hominem because you can't refute the arguments? Then you're
not just bigoted and depraved, but a sore loser on top.

End of discussion. Have a nice day.
Aragorn (11-23-19, 12:01 AM)
On 22.11.2019 at 13:09, Bobbie Sellers scribbled:

> On 11/22/19 11:35 AM, Aragorn wrote:
> Well that may be the case but if the right persons are
> elected to the offices of President and to the Congress that
> influence can be reduced to manageable levesl,


Unfortunately, that is never going to happen, and for many reasons.

First of all, the US bipartisan system is corrupt in its very
foundation. Both the US Democrats and the US Republicans are
controlled by the same corporations. Anyone who isn't under corporate
control is regarded as an Independent, and Independents cannot run for
office or even be voted for in several of the US states.

Whoever wins the 2020 elections, it is going to be someone who is
owned. Trump's success at the 2016 elections stems from the fact that
the conspiracy theorists thought he was going to be his own man.

Apart from being a narcissist — which so far every US American president
since Kennedy has been — he's still owned. It just isn't by the usual
sharks, but rather by the Italian mafia in New York and by the
White-Supremacists.

If Trump doesn't win the 2016 elections — and given the impeachment
procedure right now, there is a chance that he won't, even though the
impeachment procedure itself isn't going to lead anywhere from the
legal perspective — then it'll be Elizabeth Warren. The pro-Democratic
media are already grooming her for that role. Why? Because she's hot
air and corruptible.

> Actually the profit seekers are the problem because that is
> the only thing they are willing to consider not the effects of their
> products a few years later.


Do you know any bankers who are NOT profit seekers, Bobbie? Because if
you do, then I'd like to meet them and transfer whatever little money I
have to an account in their business.

> Well the laws of physics and nature are going to play hell
> with everything we take for granted. Call it karma but it is nature's
> reaction to the acceleration of the green house effect since the
> Industrial Revolution started with the steam engine being used in
> mines.


Not just the greenhouse effect. The soil is polluted, which means the
crops and the farm animals that we feed off will be polluted as well.

> bliss - a native born American from a different era. In that
> Era American Capitalism smothered the Hitlerians with mass production
> and relieved Europe and Asia of German and Japanese imperialism.


Yes, they replaced it with US Imperialism and American Exceptionalism.

Two wrongs don't make one right, Bobbie.
Bobbie Sellers (11-23-19, 01:14 AM)
On 11/22/19 1:50 PM, Aragorn wrote:
> On 22.11.2019 at 20:40, The Natural Philosopher scribbled:


About 6000 BC was the discovery of agriculture.
A bit later was the discovery of beer.
> I don't remember anymore. I was still very young back then. :p
>>> Yes. Earth provides more than enough for every living soul,

>> No, patently it does not.


The deterioration of the environment started with the first
cities and the creation of human centered agriculture. Single crops
on a vast scale with an underclass to work those lands while being
governed by a Theocracy that prescribed diets for women, warriors and
priests. Forest were burned to provide materials for white-washing the
mud buildings.

> No, patently it does. Earth can easily sustain up to 9 billion humans.


In what condition?
> Scarcity is both artificial and intentional.


Transport for food to the end user is focused on providing
good diets to the elite in moneyed nations.\

>> You have been brainwashed by socialism.

> No, I am being logical.
>> Go and live in a poor country and work out why its poor.


Often enough by colonialism and unequal trade of
natural resources like rare earths to the elite nations
but no emphasis on increasing the wealth of anyone but the
rulers of the poor nation.

> I live in a supposedly rich country and I am dirt poor because I'm
> disabled and surrounded by hungry vampires.


And the same is true of me but I get Social Security payments
that exceed my working income by 2 times. While I am poor I am rich
in ways that that are hard to explain to other poor people.
Being literate my entertainment does not depend on excessive
payments to a greedy cable company.

> I realize that better than you do.

But not a green. Vegetarianism is a phemenon
apart from the true Green Revolution but switching to
a vegetarian diet may be mandatory for some generation.
> Godwin much? Who does not Godwin a bit?
>>> It wasn't the Greens who drove several species into
>>> near-extinction.

>> Nope, it was dinosaurs and bacteria


Actually the dinos are not even in it since the
impact in Central America a few 10s of millions of years ago.

> No, it's overfishing and overhunting, and driving species out of their
> natural habitat so we can dig for oil or build some large factory.


Oh yes that is currently the case.
> Meanwhile there are moratoriums on the construction of new houses — we
> must preserve the green, you know — but not for the industry, because
> commerce and industry are supposed to bring wealth. And they do... to
> the business owners — not to the people.
> Besides, automation already nullifies the argument that new industries
> create new jobs.


Sometimes new industry does create new jobs and sometime
the robots are in control of the assembly line but men must keep
them running so far.

> Says the guy who talks about the Deep State™.
> Well duh, that's what I said. They wanted to show the Soviets that
> America had the biggest dick.
> Bullshit. The Japanese knew they were on the losing end of the war,
> because their logistics supply from Germany and Italy had been cut off
> due to the military action on the European mainland in 1945, and they
> were about to capitulate. It was a matter of days. But Uncle Sam just
> had to show his dick to the Russian bear.


Actually the Japanese people did not have much of a clue but
they were starving and over-worked. Whatever newspapers that remained
and whatever news reports that were played over the radio only
talked about Japanese victories as the Militarists in control
would not allow dissent.
The Militarists who ran the Government were going to resist until the
last drop of blood even after Hiroshima but after Nagasaki
the Showa Emperor put his foot down and finally the Imperial will
ruled.
The bombs did save some lives though the after effects
still linger and prejudice against the people who were bombed
persists as long as they may live.

>> Ther hsan;t been a world war sinmce. People are smply too scared.

> Bullshit again. The Cuban missile crisis brought the whole world within
> minutes from a global nuclear war. Luckily, Kennedy saw was smart
> enough to call the whole thing off.


Kennedy and Kruschev I believe. Once the Soviets started withdrawing
their missiles there was no reason to go to war. A fit
of Sanity must have hit both of these leaders at the same time.

Snip
> Going ad hominem because you can't refute the arguments? Then you're
> not just bigoted and depraved, but a sore loser on top.
> End of discussion. Have a nice day.


SOP for the right and the left resort to
argument ad hominum, when they can prove nothing
substantive about the opposition

bliss
Bobbie Sellers (11-23-19, 02:02 AM)
On 11/22/19 2:01 PM, Aragorn wrote:
> On 22.11.2019 at 13:09, Bobbie Sellers scribbled:
> Unfortunately, that is never going to happen, and for many reasons.


It has happened in the past and may happen in the future.
> First of all, the US bipartisan system is corrupt in its very
> foundation. Both the US Democrats and the US Republicans are
> controlled by the same corporations. Anyone who isn't under corporate
> control is regarded as an Independent, and Independents cannot run for
> office or even be voted for in several of the US states.


The Central Committee of the Democratic Party is definitely
inclined toward corporatism. But the Democratic Party is not a
monolith much as the DPCC might wish it to be. The Republicans under
Trump have been presenting as a monolith. But there are divisions
on all sides once you go to the voters.

> Whoever wins the 2020 elections, it is going to be someone who is
> owned. Trump's success at the 2016 elections stems from the fact that
> the conspiracy theorists thought he was going to be his own man.


Owned hopefully by the voters and not by the corporations.
> Apart from being a narcissist — which so far every US American president
> since Kennedy has been — he's still owned. It just isn't by the usual
> sharks, but rather by the Italian mafia in New York and by the
> White-Supremacists.


Kennedy was one too. He cut the taxes on the wealthy early on.
After all he was a wealthy man from a wealthy family.

> If Trump doesn't win the 2016 elections — and given the impeachment
> procedure right now, there is a chance that he won't, even though the
> impeachment procedure itself isn't going to lead anywhere from the
> legal perspective — then it'll be Elizabeth Warren. The pro-Democratic
> media are already grooming her for that role. Why? Because she's hot
> air and corruptible.


If she is corruptible it is because she is not yet corrupted.
And she has been in the Senate for a while now. Her plans for the
future are online and can be read there. They seem reasonable to me.

> Do you know any bankers who are NOT profit seekers, Bobbie? Because if
> you do, then I'd like to meet them and transfer whatever little money I
> have to an account in their business.


I don't think my bank, though it is touted the most ethical,
does business in Europe. Several organizations in Europe including
Individual.news refuse to recognize my VISA cc card as valid. Now
reasonable profit on good products is entirely acceptable but
excessive profit on polluting and bad products are not.

> Not just the greenhouse effect. The soil is polluted, which means the
> crops and the farm animals that we feed off will be polluted as well.


They have been for much of my life. The oceans
are going acid so that will keep fish from building
skeletons and shellfish from growing shells. The corals are
already having a rough time.

Now the other day I read about a new way to make
protein that uses the carbon dioxide in the air to synthesize
edible protein so we may take care of two problem removing
carbon dioxide and feeding the hapless millions displaced by
Climate Change.
> A company in Berkeley has solved the problems of feeding
> billions of people and getting rid of Carbon Dioxide.
> It has developed bacteria which take carbon dioxide out
> of the air and turns it into protein.
> <https://www.airprotein.com/>


>> bliss - a native born American from a different era. In that
>> Era American Capitalism smothered the Hitlerians with mass production
>> and relieved Europe and Asia of German and Japanese imperialism.

> Yes, they replaced it with US Imperialism and American Exceptionalism.


> Two wrongs don't make one right, Bobbie.

No they do not. Nor does labeling things as this or
that make them this or that.
American Exceptionalism is a ridiculous idea it
is obvious to all but the most prejudiced that Americans
are too much like everyone else.
US Imperialism happened while the other imperialists
were recovering on the Marshall Plan. Of course it started
in North American and part of the reason that the US broke with
the UK was that the UK did not want the Colonials to extend
their dominions into the world west of the Alleghenies. The
UK had gone a long way to making peace with the Western Tribes.
George Washington himself saw Westward expansion as desirable
for his future wealth and considered the Indians as being of
no consequence.

The martial spirit of the Japanese scared the hell out
of the USA. So much so that we locked up our immigrants and their
citizen children. Of course it was fueled by the anti-Asian
fears propagated through the radio and the newspapers especially
the Hearst newspapers. The citizen Japanese Americans were
finally some of the best fighters in WW II.
It took the USA several decades to pay off the claims
of the people they had summarily confined to concentration
camps.

bliss
The Natural Philosopher (11-23-19, 08:19 AM)
On 22/11/2019 21:09, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>    I do.  And so do many others but we see the immobility of the
> establishment as daily the petroleum and coal using automobiles and
> industries continue on their course toward the end of human civilization
> and the return of feudalism degenerating into tribalism. Aided and abetted by eco-warriors.


They are the problem they warnded you about. Left leaning political
groups first of all accuse someone else of what they are about to do,
and then do it.

CO2 is not a problem. Grets Thunberg and chums are the biggest danger to
western civilisation there is.
The Natural Philosopher (11-23-19, 08:27 AM)
On 22/11/2019 23:14, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>     The deterioration of the environment started with the first
> cities and the creation of human centered agriculture.  Single crops
> on a vast scale with an underclass to work those lands while being
> governed by a Theocracy that prescribed diets for women, warriors and
> priests.  Forest were burned to provide materials for white-washing the
> mud buildings.


So pretty much what the Greens advocate a return to, then.

However 'deterioration' is a pejorative term.

When cholorophyll first appeared and the planet turned into green slime,
was this a 'deterioration'?

You dont even realise how someone else's agenda has been implanted in
your brain.

You think of mankind's impact as negative and other species as positive.
Why?

That is a value judgement only a God can make. And only people who have
little contact with Nature do make.

They have laid a guilt trip on you, and you have accepted it willingly.

All species change the environment to suit them if they are to be succesful.

Think of it as evolution in action.
The Natural Philosopher (11-23-19, 08:30 AM)
On 23/11/2019 00:02, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>     They have been for much of my life.  The oceans
> are going acid


No. They are becomeing very very slightly less alkaline.

>>so that will keep fish from building

> skeletons


Utter tosh

and shellfish from growing shells.

Tosh on a grand scale.

>The corals are already having a rough time.


No, they are in fact doing just fine in modt places the 'experts' dont
tell you about.
TJ (11-23-19, 04:45 PM)
On 11/22/19 4:50 PM, Aragorn wrote:
> On 22.11.2019 at 20:40, The Natural Philosopher scribbled:
>> On 22/11/2019 19:35, Aragorn wrote:
>>> On 22.11.2019 at 04:06, The Natural Philosopher scribbled:
>>>> On 21/11/2019 20:58, Aragorn wrote:


A lot of political drivel from both, calculated to incite anger while
offering nothing of any use.

Aragorn, I've interacted with you for years on other newsgroups, and I
believed we had a reasonably friendly relationship. But, since I am an
American, and therefore by extension you believe me to be to blame for
all the evils of the world, I see I was mistaken. That saddens me.

Philosopher, we have had few interactions over the years, and
considering the attitude expressed here, I'm OK with that, even grateful
for it.

Meanwhile, the OP has apparently found what he was looking for from
helpful people in another newsgroup, so it's time to filter this thread
before I waste any more of my life with it.

PLONK.

TJ
jrg (11-23-19, 10:46 PM)
On 11/23/19 6:45 AM, TJ wrote:

> A lot of political drivel from both, calculated to incite anger while
> offering nothing of any use.


+1
Plonk was done w/o comment but I must agree emphatically with yours.
Aragorn's drivel came out of left field - maybe he's blaming the whole
country for the presence in the White House?

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