experchange > comp.arch.embedded

RayLopez99 (04-23-11, 01:42 PM)
rec.games.chess.computer,rec.games.chess.misc,comp .arch.embedded,alt.comp.hardware.pc-
homebuilt

Can anybody help me figure out how fast (what Elo rating) modern cell
phone and mobile phone hardware play chess? Go to the SSDF rating
list and note that

38 Pocket Shredder Ipaq 114 624 MHz 2682 65 -59 138 67% 2557
39 Deep Sjeng 1.5a 256MB Athlon 1200 MHz 2671 31 -31 493 52% 2659
40 CEBoard Fruit 2.3.1 XScale 400 400 MHz 2642 59 -57 149 59% 2580

Which shows that an XScale 400Mhz machine plays like a Pentium IV
class machine from around 2003. I think XScale is used in some older
(few years ago) Nokia cell phones.

But what about more modern cell phone hardware, like the ones that use
Qualcomm's SnapDraggon chip?

From what I can tell, the following rule of thumb is correct.

Snapdragon (single core) and Marvell's Armada 500/600, both based on
ARMv7 implementations, are roughly equal to Intel's Atom. Intel's
Atom is roughly equal to a 2003-2004 vintage Celeron. So using SSDF
you can do the math and see what a mobile phone playing software chess
program like Pocket Fritz can do in a cell phone employing these
chips. Roughly the programs would have an Elo on the SSDF list of a
little above 2660 Elo on the SSDF list, probably close to 2700 to 2750
(dual core Snapdragon cell phones, which come out in late 2011 to
2012, would be at the upper limit).

But does anybody have more precise figures? Perhaps based on the
number of chess nodes searched per second for various chips embedded
in mobile PDAs and cell phones?

RL

From the net...

Anybody



Embedded processors based on the ARM version 7 instruction set
architecture (such as TI's OMAP 3 series and Freescale's i.MX51 based
on the Cortex-A8 processor, or the Qualcomm Snapdragon and Marvell
Armada 500/600 based on custom ARMv7 implementations) offer similar
performance to the low end Atom chipsets[dubious – discuss] but at
roughly one quarter the power consumption, and (like most ARM systems)
as a single integrated system on a chip, rather than a two chip
solution like the current Atom line. Although the next-generation Atom
codenamed "Pineview" should greatly increase its competitiveness in
performance/watt, ARM plans to counter the threat with the multi-core
capable Cortex-A9 processor as used in Nvidia's Tegra 2, T.I.'s OMAP 4
series, and Qualcomm's next-generation Snapdragon series, among
others.
linnix (04-23-11, 07:27 PM)
On Apr 23, 4:42 am, RayLopez99 <raylope> wrote:
[..]
> (few years ago) Nokia cell phones.
> But what about more modern cell phone hardware, like the ones that use
> Qualcomm's SnapDraggon chip?


Why not compare it to XScale (ARM)? However, memory types and clock
rate would make a different.

> ...


> Qualcomm Snapdragon
> ....
> We're frankly not sure when we'll see Snapdragon-based devices sold in
> the US. We're sure Snapdragon will end up in smartphones at some
> point, as at least one Toshiba handset has been tentatively announced,
> but the only concrete demonstrations we've seen have been in MIDs, and
> Snapdragon themselves spend all their energy touting these
> "smartbooks." Snapdragon's Windows Mobile compatibility suggests we
> may see it roll out with Windows Mobile 7, if Tegra hasn't snapped up
> all the good handsets.


This is probably old news, very old news. The LG VS740 is 600MHz
snapdragon class cpu + dsp core. Newer versions are 1GHz.
raylopez99 (04-24-11, 01:30 PM)
On Apr 24, 12:27 am, linnix <m> wrote:
> On Apr 23, 4:42 am, RayLopez99 <raylope> wrote:
> Why not compare it to XScale (ARM)?  However, memory types and clock
> rate would make a different.


Yes, a comparison with ARM is in order, and has been done in some old
testing sites for chess. I reproduce below some data from a few years
ago.

I am now interested in the A4 chip by the iPhone, which is about 35%
faster than first generation SnapDragon chips. I think the iPhone 4
playing chess would be about 2700, since it's about twice as fast as
earlier generations, and for every doubling of speed you gain 100 Elo
points, and from the below data the earlier PDAs had about 2600 Elo
performance (see 2606 Elo below--note that inferior software will push
this number down on the same hardware, so we are talking about the
optimal, best software for any given hardware), so it would rate 2700
Elo on the SSDF scale, and indeed if you Google HIRACS, a chess
software company that writes code for the iPhone, that is exactly what
they claim on their website for the latest iPhone hardware. So the
SnapDragon would be roughly about the same (35% is not that big a
deal) or around 2675 Elo).

In conclusion, so far, the evidence points that Snapdragon (Android)
is roughly the same as a A4 chip (iPhone) for chess playing (again, on
optimal, best practices chess playing software) and roughly they play
about twice as fast as the XScale platforms, and roughly equal in
chess performance a Pentium IV (Athlon, most likely late 1990s first
generation but perhaps a Thunderbird maybe, from around 2002) in
performance, or perhaps as an upper bound (stretching it) a modern
Intel Atom (though I'm sure Intel would dispute that). Roughly these
modern chips play at the 2650 to 2700 Elo level on the SSDF scale.

The next generation A4 and Snapdragon will be multiple core, but other
than multitasking, unless the chess software is rewritten to take
advantage of multiple cores, I'm not sure if that will make the chips
that much stronger for chess. But if the feature size is the same for
the A4 (and Googling it I see that the newer A5 will be the same 45 nm
size as the A4) I don't think the A5 (next generation A4) will be
faster at chess--of course being bigger it will "do more" and be a
better chip for multitasking for mobile phone feature purposes, but
that's beside the point for this discussion.

Any other insights appreciated.

RL

Palm/Pocket PC Software PDA Estimated SSDF Elo Rating based on 288
games
Palm Chess Hiarcs 9.46 Palm Tungsten T3 XScale 400Mhz 2606
Pocket Fritz 2.0 IPAQ XScale 400Mhz 2511
Palm Chess Genius 2.1 Palm Tungsten T3 XScale 400Mhz 2394
Pocket Grandmaster IPAQ XScale 400Mhz 2381
Palm Chess Tiger 15.1 Palm Tungsten T3 XScale 400Mhz 2297
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